Funny you should mention marriage and partnership, because I just saw the ad for the new Blu-Ray edition of Walt Disney's Beauty % the Beast. Oy Gevalt! Here is this smart young Beauty who wants to go out in the world and have adventures, and what does she do? She hooks up with this abusive Beast. And here's this spoiled, obnoxious boy who has to find HIS ONE TRUE LOVE before he turns TWENTY-ONE!!! or remain a Beast forever. Arghhhhhhhh! No, no, no! You cannot feed this to children. I'm sorry! --And don't ask me what I think about The Phantom of the Stalker. I mean, The Phantom of the Opera.

The little ones won't sit still for a black & white movie but treat yourself to the 1946 Beauty & The Beast by Jean Cocteau...

But seriously, folks, I have been reading Wendell Berry for the last couple months and recommend him highly to all Green Wizards. Though a Christian, his sensibilities are quite Pagan. In The Unsettling Of America: Culture and Agriculture he says:

The farmer, sometimes known as husbandman, is by definition half mother; the only question is how good a mother he or she is. And the land itself is not mother or father only, but both. Depending on crop and season, it is at one time receiver of seed, bearer and nurturer of young; at another, raiser of seed stalk, bearer and shedder of seed. And in response to these changes, the farmer crosses back and forth from one zone of spousehood to another, first as planter and then as gatherer. Farmer and land are thus involved in a sort of dance in which the partners are always at opposite sexual poles, and the lead keeps changing: the farmer, as seed-bearer, causes growth; the land as seed-bearer, causes the harvest.

For Berry it's a continuum: The destruction of the (sacred)land is the destruction of the farm is the destruction of the community is the destruction of the household is the destruction of the (sacred bonds of) marriage. In fact I just finished his collection of essays Sex, Economy, Freedom & Community. And speaking as an old-school, liberal, urban, feminist female, I'm feeling a little bit kicked around--but I am listening! I am listening with my heart here and not with my head. I've read both The Long Descent and The Eco-Technic Future, and suddenly I'm reading the Master's Master, as it were... So I am listening!

I've just started reading Home Economics by Berry--with a side trip through The Day of the Triffids--and I recommend them all. Even the Triffids, which, surprisingly, has a lot to say on the topic of finding a helpmate to get you through the hard times. I find I like John Wyndham very much!

My DH and I loved Beauty and the Beast - but we agreed that it's a nasty con job on poor Belle to get her to fall in love with this adorable big furry beast, and then have him turn into, yech, a prince! You can probably tell quite a lot about us from this alone.

Actually, that's the *beauty* of Shrek... Fionna not only becomes a Beast, too, but reaffirms her commitment when she can have the princely Shrek.

(Apologies if it seems like we are getting far afield here, but we're getting down into the archetypes now!)

It was the "find his true love before he turned 21" that makes me crazy. Jesus Alou! In the traditional B&B story, the Beast is a cursed but mature and cultured being. It's a story about looking beyond the beastly exterior. In the Disney version, the Beast you see is the Beast you get. I really, really objected to telling Beauty to just "hang it there, kid! If you just have faith, there's a prince in there SOMEWHERE!" You know the quip, "A woman marries a man expecting him to change, and then she gets PO'd when he doesn't. A man marries a woman expecting her to remain the same, and then he gets PO'd when she changes."

I really enjoy Enchanted, with Amy Adams and Patrick Dempsey. Especially the big Bollywood number. Oh, and the vermin cleaning the apartment. I really liked both couples finding their heart's desire.

Of course, I am a complete sap for Lady & the Tramp, so don't believe everything I say about love & marriage.

At 21, he is getting very old when your lifespan is 40 to 50 years. Son to Father to Grandfather is time stamped, with the son (or daughter - I am male and admit my bias) having a much quicker clock running to get a descendant for several reasons. One must have a pathway to hand wealth down, to carry a tradition or craft past yourself and to obey the siren call of replication; and to do those things, you must have progeny sooner than later.

Being childless at 21 is NOT good. That is the use by date, and not the best plan. It truly represents undesirability on the part of the male, and sometimes the pain of forced relationships (on both parties and their extendeds) to further the group or family.

I think we will see a return to early alliances as life gets harder. I hope we can bring some current knowledge along with us. Childbirth is more hazardous the younger you are and the older you are; I do not presume to define what is appropriate - ma earth does that, thank goodness. My wife is a graduate of the Frontier Nursing Service (now University) and I think represents the ideal of the coming new kind of health care provider - approachable, part of the community, and smart as hell. Seeing her gives me heart for the coming darknesses. The original teaching process of midwifery was formalized for rural Kentucky and beyond, taking some turf back from the physicians of the day and improving the lives and outcomes of their patients. Now there are lots and lots of nurse pratitioners, and other providers beginning to flourish. I wonder what that means?

The barefoot providers of China carried cultural teachings with them as they worked their territories, and so do our providers. We need to work on the messages a bit.

You just made me realize that I have never read any version of the original fairy tale in print. Must correct that.

Dewey,

By all means, you should find a good print version. I grew up on the Junior Illustrated Classic Comic version. There was, of course, the Beauty & the Beast TV series twenty years ago, but I couldn't stand that one either! It went overboard in the other direction with the "noble" Beast--and it was sooooo romantic. Anybody wanting to tug at my heart strings is likely to get a punch in the eye!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauty_and_the_Beast_%28TV_series%29

But to bring this conversation back on topic...I was thinking this afternoon that both the traditional version have one thing in common: Beauty's ineffectual father. I know, I know...for 40 years we've been telling ourselves that Mom can do it all, but boys AND girls are gonna need regular input from Dad if they are gonna grow up and make good marriages.

Other thought that crossed my mind: in the original version of B&B (like in Cinderella), Beauty lives in the shadow of her sisters who are Material Girls--and it is their wanting ways that threaten to destroy Beauty's relationship with her Beast (nice little animus touch, there, if you relate to fairy tales on that level).

Oh, and did I say I hate, hate, hate "Be our guest, be our guest..."? Tie me down and make me listen to "It's a small world after all"!

Cocteau's La belle et la bête is one of the finer movies ever made. I had the Criterion collection DVD (which I highly recommend) and eventually donated that to the public library after enjoying the film at least five or six times.

There is a lot going on in the story. It has a bit of a "good intentions gone awry" cautionary aspect. Ultimately things turn out okay only because the characters (especially Belle, but also her beast) are willing to negotiate, eventually achieving an authentic acceptance of their situation and genuine love and respect for each other.

I think that's totally relevant to the topic at hand. Yet, having enjoyed a wonderful relationship with my man for more than two decades now, I still couldn't say what makes it work. It just does. Willingness and ability to negotiate is important, but it's not the only important thing, and it could be an effect as much as a cause. I don't spend much time analyzing it, truth be told. I just focus on the daily kindnesses, small and large, given and received, that seem to keep things running smoothly.

It's pretty simple in concept, but very hard to do. Don't worry about what you say in front of your kids. Worry about what you _do_ in front of your kids. In other words, you have to model the behavior you want them to emulate. It doesn't matter what you say. Actions speak louder than words. What they see you doing, is what they will do themselves in the end. Kind of frightening really.

If I had children (other than the World's Best Cat), I'd certainly make sure they saw how much my husband and I benefit, physically, economically, and emotionally, from having a friend and partner we can always trust. (You know the saying - a friend will help you move, a good friend will help you move a body....) But I would worry that, arriving after the years of bickering we took to develop that partnership, they would see no evidence against the romantic idea that a blissful relationship just IS that way right from the start, and either you have it or you don't - which, of course, inclines people to give up and move on at the first rough spot. I'd make sure our kids understood that such deep friendship requires years of effort, even if I had to admit that for a while we fought like cats and dogs and threatened to divorce.

I'd also try to teach my children how you can recognize people who just aren't capable of real partnership (sociopaths and those who for whatever reason are totally selfish) so that you don't waste years of your life on them. If you are comfortable conversing on that topic with your child, you'd better find subjects of discussion other than and before the first boy/girlfriend you don't like the looks of - otherwise it just looks like you're being a spoilsport.

Well hollywood sure has done a number on effective mate choosing. There you are supposed to go after the trophy head (or the sweater puppies). The frontal skin on the cranium is so much more important than the grey matter inside. Excuse me for the sexism but the women folk here can probably give the male stereotype examples of how a girl should, in the movies, assess the male attributes. Likely just as assinine. Sports figures are our childrens heroes.

The real matters of compatability and value of skills and potential contribution seem to be little considered. The dating scene is a fantasy world so far removed from the real life arena where real life unfolds. How could they even attempt to assess compatability there.

There is certainly no commitment to compromise. This not only in marriage but in most of the other social institutions. I suppose the older adults throughout history have always thought the youth of the day were bent on destruction but perhaps the recent weirdness really is an engineered enhancement to the normal effects of teen age hormones.

I do have to think that a bit of effort could bring a bit more thought to bear on the process. Realizing what life changing affects really ride on it, might encourage at least a few to be a bit more pragmatic.

As much as i hate to say it but I suspect this will become a major factor again - less avalible/less reliable contraception will mean that people will want to put of having kids for economic reasons.

When they do, I anticipate purity (on both parties parts) being important again as well - Syphilis (and to a lesser extent other vd)was a major killer in victorian england, and they didnt even have hiv!

IIRC they are made from a dead end in one of the sheep's intestines, analogous to our appendix. One per sheep. Kind of expensive to produce at that rate. I assume that's why people used to wash and re-use them.

Not sure modern condoms are all petroleum products. Quite a few are natural latex. I'm sure petroleum is involved in the energy to manufacture them, but in theory some other energy source could be used.