Community policing discussion?
Hello, I know this is highly topical for those of you in the USA. And, it might not be possible to discuss because of the strong feelings and political opinions involved. I hope in that case David will be able to lock or delete the thread. All the discussion about the police and defunding certain police departments has got me interested. It occurred to me that the federated political structure of the USA, if I understand right, might allow good practices to be developed in local areas and freely adopted or not in other areas. I suppose a dissensus in policing. Obviously a lot of people are intersted in making some changes now so it's a good time to gather together the good ideas that people have and to think about what might be workable in terms of improvements.
I thought it might be possible to have a fruitful discussion if everyone is super disciplined and polite. I personally believe that the most fruitful discussions can be those when people who genuinely disagree attempt to communciate with each other and answer each others' questions in a considered way. Can we manage such a thing without JMG and his pet black hole??
1) How would you organize policing in your neighbourhood if you had to organize a police force from the beginning? Are there any countercultural good examples locally, or from other parts the USA or further abroad where the policing works well which could be used as examples?
2) How would the police be funded?
3) How would your officers be recruited and trained?
4) What would happen when officers committed crimes for instance driving under the influence of alcohol, use or supply of illegal drugs, or violent crimes? (How would this be managed in terms of legal prosecution? At present I have heard one of the systemic issues is that the prosecutors department works so closely with police that it's almost impossible for them to prosecute officers no matter what the crime.)
One good example about training I have heard about is in Japan. Friends told me that their police are expected to be highly trained in one of the traditional martial arts and this favours a de-escalation culture which has the result of deaths directly involving the police being low. They have some different equipment such as pink rubber mattress-like things to wrap round people holding edged weapons.
Also I wondered whether there are good examples of community policing in some American Indian nations? It's a different aspect of community government but the New Zealanders re-organized their regional boundaries to follow the watersheds in accordance with guidance from Maori elders. Still an example of learning from what has worked in the past.
Justin Patrick Moore
Thu, 06/11/2020 - 08:03
Permalink
Sweeping Reform & Mental Health Force
Hi Alice. I think we can all do this sensibly. Perhaps to get things started I'll post this quote from JMG where he responed to Patricia Ormsby over at his main blog.
"I think it’s quite sensible for a police department to engage in that kind of sweeping reform where it’s called for. I also think there’s a lot to be said for the parallel proposal of spinning off some duties now assigned to the police — for example, dealing with mentally ill people who are melting down in public — to a newly created set of city personnel who are trained to handle such things without resorting to violence. Third, there’s a huge amount to be said for going with less militarized forms of policing. A local anecdote: here in East Providence we had an armed standoff situation on our block a while back. The police cordoned off the house, and there were snipers in place, but they’re trained in deescalation methods. Instead of going in shooting, they talked the guy down, and nobody got shot at all. That was successful policing. If that was all that the various activists were calling for, I think most people would support it."
I like the idea of a parallel force for dealing with the mentally ill -which I think could include drug addicts. A lot of time when the police get called over a domestic meltdown somebody ends up in the psyche ward. That happens quite a lot, so a parallel group who know how to work with insane people in a sane way would be great. There would need to be compassion training, & perhaps some martial arts as you mentioned.
I really like the idea of a police trained in martial arts. Many of the police I see don't look all that physically fit, and without at least some physical health, I wonder about the mental health of the police force itself. With so much stress on them in their jobs, taking some of the pressure off by spinning off various duties to other groups would be one way to release some pressure. Also their own mental health would be in better shape if they were in better shape. Plus it has been shown that martial arts also often makes people more peaceful in a way as they learn discipline and get in touch with the life force.
Those are just a few thoughts. I'm not sure about funding, etc. It seems to me the forces may have more "toys" in the forms of former military equipment than they may actually need.
alice
Fri, 06/12/2020 - 09:35
Permalink
Thanks for this contribution JPM
Great, yes, thanks for adding those words from JMG's main blog. Really it's the discussions on his blogs that have convinced me of the value of trying to create appropriate policies to improve local situations from the ground up.
So we've got:
a) Patricia's comment "About the proposal for the Minneapolis police. The article I read said the Minneapolis City Council wanted to do exactly what was successfully done in Camden, NJ, about 7 years ago. Camden had an ongoing, intractable problem with police corruption. So the Council found a police chief elsewhere who had a reputation for integrity, gave him a free hand to bring in whoever he wanted, and when he was in place, fired the entire police force and let the new Chief rebuild it in a better image.
I see no problem with any city which has an ongoing, intractable problem with police brutality doing the same. The issue of excessive fore for minor offenses is front and center now – and as far as I can tell, has a record of throwing gasoline on the flames. "
b) Separate team for handling acute mental health crises;
c) De-escalation needs to be a standard part of police training and practice
d) physical fitness criteria. I know there are stringent physical fitness criteria for police officers here in the UK. There's some guidance here https://www.college.police.uk/What-we-do/Standards/Fitness/Pages/default... Our police wear protective vests but are don't routinely carry firearms. There are special armed response units, listed under Authorised Firearms Officer (AFO), Armed Response Vehicle, Dynamic Intervention AFO.
e) martial arts training for officers for both physical and mental benefits.
Teresa from Hershey
Thu, 06/11/2020 - 11:57
Permalink
I have a long list of possibilities for police reforms
My dad was in the military police and then became a Dover police officer for 20 years. When he retired, he joined the city as a statistical analyst for the prison system. He's quite liberal. He firmly believed that every police department has within it the makings of a Gestapo. He also believed the police needed to be armed because criminals don't disarm themselves because you ask nicely.
What would he recommend?
1) The police should never be militarized. Their function is to work with the public, not fight enemy soldiers.
2) The police should NEVER be used as revenue generators for the city. No ticket quotas, ever. No revenue generating speed traps.
3) The police union, like the AMA and teachers' unions, should not be allowed to protect bad cops.
4) Police have to be held (at a minimum) to the same standards as everyone else. Or a bit higher, really since if you enforce the law, you should be liable to the law.
5) Bad police should be prosecuted and removed from the force. If you've got a string of complaints from citizens willing to go on the record, then the city can safely assume there are plenty more complaints from citizens who are afraid to say something. This is a function of the city and if the city refuses to police its police force, you'll have problems.
6) Police need to be part of the community.
7) Police should not be used as mental health counselors! That's not their job and they are not trained for it.
Doing any of these suggestions would be a good start.
alice
Fri, 06/12/2020 - 09:47
Permalink
Great
Great, thanks for contributing these Teresa. I was hoping that people with extensive exposure to the problems would weigh in.
I think a city could decide to have traffic wardens who are not police simply to monitor the traffic and parking ordinances and speed limits, couldn't it? I wonder if there are any places in the USA where it's already done this way?
Re enforcing criminal prosecutions and removal of offending police officers, do you have suggestions about the how? I was watching a video a friend sent the other day and it featured a criminal prosecutor saying that they have to work very closely with the police, they have to rely on and trust them, and work closely with them, and so officers are in and out of the prosector's office all day. And that structural feature of the criminal justice system makes it very hard to prosecute officers who commit crimes. Do you have thoughts about how that tangle could be cut?
Your point 6 makes me think actually how about democratic election of police officers? Could it work to have a local process to elect officers by public vote? Or at least to veto them? So perhaps the department does the normal recruitment process involving checking their credentials and references, but before they begin work they have to pass a local ballot?
alice
Fri, 06/12/2020 - 09:57
Permalink
Re 4 & 5
I realize I have been thinking mainly about police reform in the USA but we are in need of police reform in the UK as well, for similar reasons.
Another thing I thought about is whistleblowing. Where anyone becomes aware of criminal offences by police there needs to be a way to get the information into the hands of whoever is going to prosecute. I guess it's almost like there needs to be a separate citizen's advocate, whose job it is to investigate and prosecute cases involving police officers, I guess they would need to contract in local private investigators? But they do they need to have special legal powers like the police have, whilst contracted to the public advocate's office? It's tricky this quis custodiet ipsos custodes problem. Definitely not my strong point trying to think through how things can be done. Possibly it is just more straightforward to have some kind of local election process where people can remove offenders by direct democracy? BUt there is still the problem of making sure criminal prosecutions happen, and that they stick, and that the offender doesn't just go and sign up to the police force in the next county.
David Trammel
Thu, 06/11/2020 - 13:48
Permalink
Be As Non-political As You Can, But Have At It
I see no problems.
alice
Fri, 06/12/2020 - 09:25
Permalink
Great, thanks David
Great, thanks David.
Blueberry
Thu, 06/11/2020 - 19:55
Permalink
Non-political
Something to think about. https://amalaw.com/20-common-felony-crimes-u-s/
alice
Fri, 06/12/2020 - 09:53
Permalink
list of felony crimes
Great, yes good to have a list of the felony crimes for thinking about how it would work best for our local communities to respond to them.
Teresa from Hershey
Fri, 06/12/2020 - 11:29
Permalink
I forgot part of item 2) and using police as revenue generators
I forgot one of the most critical items in line item 2); not using police as revenue generators.
Civil asset forfeiture.
That is, the cops make the drug bust and seize the dealers assets and sell them to fund the police department OR the city. They seize and auction property, cars, art, guns, jewelry, etc, etc.
This can work but you have to be very rigorous in your enforcement because if you're wrong about someone being a drug dealer, they've lost everything they own.
Civil asset forfeiture is a recipe for graft and corruption and overreach.
alice
Fri, 06/12/2020 - 11:34
Permalink
Gosh, yes
This is so good for me to learn, Teresa. I had no idea and it's great to hear from someone with long exposure to some of the problems pointing out what actually happens.
Also I have learned about 'Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services', which is the public body here in the UK. It's interesting the way the institution of the monarchy functions as a public guardian in some ways.
David Trammel
Fri, 06/12/2020 - 12:32
Permalink
Decide Just What We Want Police To Do First
The term I believe in the military is "mission creep" which is when a unit goes in to one job, and then gets more and more added to its initial objective.
Here's a good though short over view of that discussion
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/first-step-figuring-ou...
Then we need to start training our new police officers like guardians, not like they are going on a patrol in Iraq.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/police-academies-param...
alice
Sat, 06/13/2020 - 02:16
Permalink
Great contribution
Great contribution David, yes two very good points there.
Blueberry
Fri, 06/12/2020 - 14:21
Permalink
Balance The Checkbook
Ok about 20+ years ago Florida went with a balance budget amendment. So on the locale level we don't have money for that so let the cops handle it. With the current fall in tax money more programs are history. The county East of me just cancelled the summer recreation program all playgrounds closed for the next 3 months! The same county has a water and sewage system for big parts of the county a plan to help people who cannot pay there bill is in trouble. Run on donations it is out of money. So were is all the money going to come from? Answer what money!!!!!
alice
Sat, 06/13/2020 - 02:16
Permalink
I agree Blueberry, how we can pay is critical
I agree Blueberry. Making the roles of public guardians affordable is a big thing. It might be that generally folks need to be training up in the martial arts disciplines, practicing in teams, organizing via phone trees and community/family alert systems. Because the public purse is broke and that is one of the reasons for some of the policing dysfunctions.
For example I don't think anyone thinks it's ideal that the police have to pin down and carry away people in acute mental health crises who are a danger to themselves or others. But there doesn't seem to be the money for mental health professionals and ambulances to come for those people, nor do most of the people suffering have the resources to get whatever treatment would keep them from such crises. I know the police over here in the UK do a lot of detaining people under the Mental Health Act until ambulances can come to take them to locked wards for psychiatric assessment and treatment.
Sophie Gale
Sun, 06/14/2020 - 19:06
Permalink
Community residence and accountability
I think it's important to have police live in the neighborhoods where they work.
I think it's important to have a national database of "bad apples" so an officer fired from one city police force can't be hired in another state.
alice
Mon, 06/15/2020 - 11:13
Permalink
Those are both really good points Sophie.
Yes both of these points are good.
How could you carry out the first? Would it be a strict residency criteria in the job application? Get them to show their local tax payment proof or however that works locally to you?
Great idea about a database of police. If there was a mandate to record all disciplinary procedures against serving officers, that could be one way to do it. Or actually could it work so each local police department reported on all employments, and the disciplinary record of all police officers could be accessed through the state database? And perhaps each state could have a commitment to exchange records with other states so that a nationwide tracking system could work? Tracking all employment of police officers would help catch where a department allowed one to 'get away' -- I have heard a story of a police officer being allowed to resign rather than be charged with criminal offences and a tracking database might help uncover that kind of bad practice.
I think this could be a really important action because it's not all that expensive to maintain a record database and have someone who can access it.