Easy Fresh Water Storage?

Submitted by Alacrates on Sat, 01/19/2019 - 11:37
Alacrates's picture
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The Second Circle: Food and Water

I've read books on getting in the habit of storing up food and water for hard times, the best I've come across is Sharon Astyk's Independence Days.

They often have a section on storing drinking water, including methods like filling water jugs, adding a bit of bleach to stop bacterial growth, then using them in rotation to make sure they stay somewhat fresh over time.

It always sounds like a fair bit of work, with heavy containers, that doesn't offer a lot to the practitioner, except for a time when the water supply was disrupted, which I believe are still fairly rare in North America.

They also remind you that a great resource of water in an emergency is the water in your hot water tank and the piping of your home. That got me to thinking, why not increase the amount of water you have in your piping system?

My thought was, for people on municipal water (or even a well if you're worried about electricity supply being disrupted for your pump) what if you installed a water tank somewhere after your meter? If it was like a hot water tank, then you would have 40 - 80 gallons of water always sitting there, with a hose bibb at the base for drainage, constantly being refreshed any time you opened a tap. If you wanted more storage, set up more tanks in a sequence.

You might want to add a check valve where your water enters your house, so that if the water system failed and there was low pressure in the mains, no water would be siphoned from your residence.

A few things I don't know: would these tanks grow any sort of bacteria over time? I don't think so, the water is being constantly being refreshed, I was just wondering if maybe water flow scours the inside of pipes in a way that wouldn't happen in a non-heated water storage tank? Of course the water is treated, usually chlorinated, so probably not, and there are places that rely on water delivered into plastic storage tanks or cisterns, which do not have the regular flow that these tanks would, so I'm guessing that wouldn't be a problem.

I also don't know how much these types of tanks would cost. Of course they should be cheaper than hot water tanks, they don't need electrical elements/burner assemblies. I just don't know what products are available, though I have seen hot water storage tanks (without any heating elements) which might be a good idea, as the insulation in them would help from the outsides condensating in the warm months, with all that cold water sitting in the tank.

One thought I had: people sometimes get rid of hot water tanks before they are truly broken. Sometimes an element has gone and they just want the whole thing replaced, sometimes they are switching from gas/electric, sometimes they are just upsizing to a larger tank.

If these old tanks were flushed, I have a feeling they would last a long time for just cold water storage, it's usually the inner liner that breaks, and if it wasn't being subjected to constant heating cycles, I don't see why it wouldn't last a long times.

Last thought I had on this, it might also be a good idea to put this cold water storage tank on the inlet line to your hot water tank. The water in the cold storage would have time to warm up to room temperature before moving into the hot water tank, meaning you would need less gas/electricity to heat your water up to 140F or whatever you've set your hwt too.

Let me know what you think. If you know of tanks that would be good for this type of storage and how much they cost in your area, I'd be interested to know.

Blueberry's picture

Blueberry

Sat, 01/19/2019 - 18:46

I live in a nice warm part of the world so my tank is outside size is app 150 gals have a back flow value ( check Value) between the tank and the community water system. Also have a water cooler a big orange thing that holds like 10 gals of water that I fill up if we are going to have a storm. The big orange thing came from Home Depot. The water for the house flows into and out of the tank so no problem of bad water. If you live in a city the tank could be placed in a garage or a basement. My tank is what is used in my area if one was using a well.

Alacrates's picture

Alacrates

Sun, 01/20/2019 - 10:42

That is a nice system to have, especially if a lot of the people in your community have something similar, it definitely takes the stress off the powers-that-be if people are not in crisis mode the moment infrastructure fails!

I'm curious about a few details of your storage tank, no one has one where I live in Canada. (For instance, there is no way we could have a water tank in a garage unless it was fully heated, we actually are not allowed to have water piping in outside walls unless the walls are sprayfoamed!)

So, is it a plastic tank that is filled by the community water pressure, your water main for your house flows from the tank to your fixtures, without pumps in your house?

Does the outdoor tank need to be cleaned inside at all, or does the flow of the water, and the treatment of the municipal water prevent any bacterial growth, etc., from building up inside the tank?

Blueberry's picture

Blueberry

Sun, 01/20/2019 - 19:14

The tank is steel with a glass lining when the water is flowing in the house, water is going thru the tank. Think of the tank as a BIG PIECE of pipe. The water pressure on the community system runs between 40-60 PSI. That is like 3-4 BARS or 300-400 Kpa hope I got that right. I have a ball value on the very top which I can open if pressure falls to zero to drain the tank. I also have ball values on the input and output. The water source for the system is 3 deep wells around 400 feet ( 120 meters). The water is very clean chlorine is added just in case as required by the EPA. Ph is 7.2 The source rock is limestone. I am now seventy so no longer on the water board. I maintain my operators cert. just in case and still have keys to the place. None of the members on the board are paid. Only people who are paid are the 2 guys who do the grunt work.

Alacrates's picture

Alacrates

Mon, 01/21/2019 - 18:21

Interesting to hear, plumbing changes quite a bit from region to region, it is interesting to hear about the set-up for your water system.

David Trammel's picture

David Trammel

Sat, 01/19/2019 - 20:25

Thanks for the thought of using an old water heater. My sister replaced hers this year and the old one is still sitting downstairs. I'll have to see if I can get her to keep it and then factor it into the new construction downstairs this Fall to add a second half-bath.

One thing I would note, many water heaters fail because of mineral deposits. They build up inside the tank and settle at the bottom, eventually burning out the heater element. You would want to run a solution of de-limer, through the tank first. Once you did I don't think you'd have any problems.

Alacrates's picture

Alacrates

Sun, 01/20/2019 - 11:32

I think it could be a good idea for someone who was wanting to store extra fresh water for emergency purposes, saving them the work of constantly filling, treating, and using water storage jugs. I think that work might prevent someone who wants the extra stored water taking this on, or make someone give it up once they did try using water jugs.

True that mineral deposits are often a problem on older tanks, but it shouldn't cause much problems since the tank wouldn't be used for heating water anymore. Usually you can flush a lot of that out the drain at the bottom of the tank (though sometimes that can be difficult if there is so much build up that it plugs the valve/opening in the tank!) A CLR cleaning, then a good flush, would probably be a good idea.

One thing I am a little concerned with is if there would be any bacteria growth in the tank. I kind of think not, but its just not a thing that is done much in my country so I don't know. Worst would be legionella bacteria. Its recommended that cold water be kept at 20c/68f or below (where legionella is dormant) or 60c/140f or above for hot water (where legionella dies.)

Well, this second non-heated tank isn't exactly a storage tank, it is constantly being drawn from/refilled every time you use water. And a water tank kept in the basement probably would have a water temp around or below 20C/140F, especially if its getting pretty cold water and has some insulation in the tank.

Last, if you set up the cold water storage tank so that it is feeding your hot water tank (i.e. the outlet on the cold storage tank goes directly to the inlet on the hot water tank.), all the water in the storage tank would be run through the 60c/140f water heater before it was used. (Though then again, for a long shower, some of that water is not getting to 140F before hitting the outlet. Another problem I can see now is hot water creeping back into the storage tank if they are close together. To stop that is going to require a check valve between them, and then an expansion tank on the hot water side to allow for the expansion of heated water. Argh, this is getting complicated!!)

It's possible one doesn't need to worry about his at all. If the system that Blueberry describes in the post above works (i.e. a 150 gallon outdoor storage tank on their water supply line) then I'm guessing the storage tank wouldn't be cause any bacteria growth, but I just don't want to give anyone bad advise, it was just a thought I had.

I guess these are the perils of tinkering and doing things that are outside of standard practice, there are a lot of consequences you have to think through, you don't have tradition doing the testing phase for you :P

Sweet Tatorman's picture

Sweet Tatorman

Mon, 01/21/2019 - 06:11

This sounds good to me. Since the water in the added tank is continually being refreshed I doubt there would any problems arising from it's brief residence there. Where I live I get county supplied water as the last user on over a mile of branch line that taps off a main running down a State Hyway. As there are only 6 users on the branch I would say that the water I use has typically been in the branch line for a week or more since leaving the main at the Hyway. No problems with the water noted.
If you are patient and your social network is large you likely could find a used one for the asking as you have noted. Some folks are going to tankless water heaters with the result of used tanks becoming available. Another option would be to check your local Craigs list. If the aesthetics of having a new pristine glass lined tank is important to you there is the possibility of finding one cheap that is seriously blemished but the actual tank part is intact. Think fell off of forklift, sheet metal shell crushed or torn.
As far as adding a check valve, at least in the US most jurisdictions already require this. Typically called "backflow preventer" and often located out at the meter though not always so.
Stating the obvious; when implementing this scheme be sure to add a valve above the tank to admit air so that it can be easily drained.

Alacrates's picture

Alacrates

Mon, 01/21/2019 - 18:34

Another thought I had on this issue was that in some disaster situations, (perhaps flooding most of all?) the water supply gets fowled by sewage, and in that situation, this solution wouldn't help for drinking water, it might be better to stick with storing water in jugs for that type of scenario.

In my own situation, where our drinking water comes in from an aqueduct from a distant lake, I can't see how sewage would enter the water supply before a time that the power to the municipal pumps failed, but maybe in other scenarios this is possible.

One thing a person could do is have isolation valves around extra water storage supplies, which could be closed off if one heard of a disaster scenario on the horizon, and a bypass valve that could be opened to route around the storage tank, to supply whatever fixture were being supplied from the cold water storage tank.

Blueberry's picture

Blueberry

Tue, 01/22/2019 - 07:13

"Anything that can go wrong will go wrong"

Sweet Tatorman's picture

Sweet Tatorman

Wed, 01/23/2019 - 13:42

I think that if I were implementing your idea using a conventional water heater as the tank I would consider doing the following. I would plumb it backwards using the normal outlet as the inlet and the normal inlet as the outlet. Typically a water heater tank has an internal pipe on the inlet which conducts the entering water to the bottom of the tank. By using this as your outlet you could drain the tank thru your normal household plumbing by forcing air into the top of the tank via the normal outlet. I would likely choose a 12 VDC air pump to have the option of running off of a car battery should mains power be out. With mains power available you could use an AC to DC power supply to power the pump. There are a couple of air pump types to consider. Some aquarium type are pumps are capable of 10-15 psi which is adequate to supply water to the fixtures in a 1 or 2 level structure albeit at lesser flow rates than normal. The pump would only be run when water was needed. Another option would be to use a higher pressure pump such as a tire inflator good to 100 psi or so. Once the tank was partly drained, say down a quarter, the air space in the tank could be pressurized to 75 psi and then the pump shut off. This amount of pressure in a 25% drained tank would provide sufficient expansion to enable completely draining the tank. It would be a simple enough matter to install a Schrader type valve [like the valve stem on a tire] in the appropriate location.

Alacrates's picture

Alacrates

Tue, 02/05/2019 - 19:59

Interesting enhancement to the general idea!

I was thinking more that, in a disaster situation, one would close off their valve to the water supply system beyond, and then maybe drain the water supplies in their piping/tanks out as needed by gravity, but if one wanted to maintain pressure at the outlets, this would be the way to do it!

Denys

Thu, 01/24/2019 - 06:48

We regularly lose power for 4-5 days in a row during storms, and we have a well so no electric means no water.

I bought used food storage barrels - these come in blue plastic - from trash man. The ones I bought had soy sauce in them. The whole top unscrews so if I had to clean it, I could clean it. Stands about 4ft tall and is 18"-24" in diameter. Cost $10

I put the barrel on a furniture moving dolly I bought at Harbor Freight. These are one foot square rectangular wood with wheels on the bottom. Now I can wheel the barrel to the sink to fill it and then out of the way for storage.

Also bought a siphon hose to get the water out of the barrel. I treat the water using a 1/4 cup of household bleach, and replace it every six months or so (you can find the formula online of bleach to water to make it potable).

Easy - inexpensive - and has gotten a family of four through eight power outages.

When I know a storm is coming I also fill up 5 gallon buckets with water and put a lid on them. These are buckets I set aside for this purpose. Helps in flushing toilets, washing pots/dishes, general cleaning, etc.

Denys

Thu, 01/24/2019 - 06:51

The kind of storage tank you want is a cistern. These used to be on farms. Underground storage of water straight from the well. The under 50 degree temp kept bacteria from growing.

Anything with clear plastic will grow bacteria quickly. During Katrina all the water shipped in and left at the airport on the runway was unusable within a week - they were full of green slimy looking stuff. Einstein level thinking in charge of disaster recovery.

Alacrates's picture

Alacrates

Tue, 02/05/2019 - 19:56

Agreed - a cistern would be ideal.

I'm wondering if for inexpensive, urban extra water storage if this set-up, with an old hot water tank installed on a cold water line would be an easy way to increase one's amount of potable water on hand.

As you've mentioned, plastic water tanks may not be the best choice. I'm wondering if a glass-lined h.w.tank, that is being continually refilled when one draws water from the system, is a decent strategy? Of course, if it was, 2 H.W.Tanks, 40-50gallons each, could double one's storage capacity fairly easily.

Alacrates's picture

Alacrates

Sun, 03/17/2019 - 18:12

I wrote this idea up as a blog post, along with some other thoughts on food and water storage, and the idea of preparing for collapse generally.

http://ecotechnicinklings.blogspot.com/2019/03/idea-for-easy-urban-water...

I put a link in the post to the forum here, and mentioned that I posted the idea here first, to get some feedback on it before posting it to my blog.

I really like that I can discuss ideas on here and get some green wizards to think them over before I write up a post. I probably have 4 - 5 readers on my blog, lol, but I like writing up these posts, keeps me focused on learning about green wizardry-type topics, with eye to be careful about the details.

Thanks all!